Discussion ad hominem
Not long ago I decided to effectively leave the Zaadz community and abandon my post there for several reasons. First, I felt the promised transformative platform was being pampered and traded for an irritating LOHAS chic, soon to be confirmed with Zaadz (a Friend of the I-I) being sold to Gaiam (origin: "Gaia+I am", OMG) and then adequately renamed to Gaia dot com (on the web, semantics is everything). Second, it was becoming obvious that even the best discussions at Zaadz are inescapably tainted with endless and painful logical and emotional circularity, defended as PC tolerance at this crucial time when the unsophisticated, deeply narcisistic sensitivity of so many is assaulting every trace of authenticity to be found in so few. Other reasons seem to stem from these two. You know, anybody is equally entitled to anything, and the only sin is a violation of That. Not of duty, not of privilege, but of an absurd entitlement. Basically, I wasn't dissapointed or disheartened, but have come to conclusion that Zaadz was a herald of a project that will be progressive enough to boldly proclaim standards that go beyond sheer egalitarianism, to usher a new standard of communal excellence and depth, immune to the extreme of uncritical acceptance otherwise celebrated as a cardinal virtue. In short, Zaadz was somewhat a hype.
Recently Julian Walker (see here) and Bruce Alderman (see here) both contributed remarkable posts to their blogs. The discussions themselves tended to blur the points made in original posts, and eventually seemed to neutralize the potential opened by the posts themselves. I wouldn't and couldn't take part in the ensuing discussions, since I have already left the tribe. It doesn't hurt to peek, though, right? Yes, the discussions can be fun and entertaining and even empowering, but so can many other things in life, while some things, some ideas, some practices, some phenomena etc. deserve a special treatment, because of their explicit transformative potential. Meanwhile, Julian became annoyed after taking so much "flak from everyone", Bruce felt that Julian doesn't stop long enough to actually understand what someone else is saying, and others - with few exceptions like Jim and James and David - mostly used their combined authenticity to chip in with anything from admiration to agreement to self-promotion to ill-hidden sarcasm to childish f*ck yous to simple gratitude. Despite all that, Julian and Bruce, with a little help from some friends, did manage to make at least some differences stand out rather clearly.
However, I was now in position of an onlooker, an intellectual peeper, as most readers of such discussions are by definition, and I discovered how frustrating discussions can be for the most part, and often useless. In order to have a meaningful discussion, participants must share a common purpose, that implicitly transcends their respective views or agendas. An example of such purpose is given in the dialogical notion of Raimon Panikkar (e.g. see Balder's take on Panikkar).
Something like this has happened already, and will happen again. For example, when the Integral Institute launched its forums, the Road Rules were set forth to "not just regulate traffic, but to call all participants to their own highest awareness." The guidelines were all variations on the simple dictum: "Let the next words out of your mouth (and into this forum) be from your Highest Self as you understand it." Well, it was an attempt, that didn't work very well. I haven't visited the I-I Forums for a loooong time.
On the other hand, hardcore discussion can only take place in protected spaces (online or real world), far from anything resembling universal entitlement. Instead, deep discussion is delineated by merit and realization. Whether in business, politics, or spirituality, deep dialogue is sustained by those who are willing and capable to embody that which is being aimed at by discussion with a common purpose and an open mind, or else to remain silent and respectful. Is that too much to ask? Fortunately, there are such places. But we need more hybrids, where some of that deep conversation can be joined by the public in a meaningful way. Any thoughts?
Recently Julian Walker (see here) and Bruce Alderman (see here) both contributed remarkable posts to their blogs. The discussions themselves tended to blur the points made in original posts, and eventually seemed to neutralize the potential opened by the posts themselves. I wouldn't and couldn't take part in the ensuing discussions, since I have already left the tribe. It doesn't hurt to peek, though, right? Yes, the discussions can be fun and entertaining and even empowering, but so can many other things in life, while some things, some ideas, some practices, some phenomena etc. deserve a special treatment, because of their explicit transformative potential. Meanwhile, Julian became annoyed after taking so much "flak from everyone", Bruce felt that Julian doesn't stop long enough to actually understand what someone else is saying, and others - with few exceptions like Jim and James and David - mostly used their combined authenticity to chip in with anything from admiration to agreement to self-promotion to ill-hidden sarcasm to childish f*ck yous to simple gratitude. Despite all that, Julian and Bruce, with a little help from some friends, did manage to make at least some differences stand out rather clearly.
However, I was now in position of an onlooker, an intellectual peeper, as most readers of such discussions are by definition, and I discovered how frustrating discussions can be for the most part, and often useless. In order to have a meaningful discussion, participants must share a common purpose, that implicitly transcends their respective views or agendas. An example of such purpose is given in the dialogical notion of Raimon Panikkar (e.g. see Balder's take on Panikkar).
Something like this has happened already, and will happen again. For example, when the Integral Institute launched its forums, the Road Rules were set forth to "not just regulate traffic, but to call all participants to their own highest awareness." The guidelines were all variations on the simple dictum: "Let the next words out of your mouth (and into this forum) be from your Highest Self as you understand it." Well, it was an attempt, that didn't work very well. I haven't visited the I-I Forums for a loooong time.
On the other hand, hardcore discussion can only take place in protected spaces (online or real world), far from anything resembling universal entitlement. Instead, deep discussion is delineated by merit and realization. Whether in business, politics, or spirituality, deep dialogue is sustained by those who are willing and capable to embody that which is being aimed at by discussion with a common purpose and an open mind, or else to remain silent and respectful. Is that too much to ask? Fortunately, there are such places. But we need more hybrids, where some of that deep conversation can be joined by the public in a meaningful way. Any thoughts?



9 Comments:
Hear, hear.
The level of respect and courtesy to other opinions is so low in these so-called integral circles that it took me a long time to admit to myself that many people, including myself, narcissistically self-bestow the title "integral" and then proceed to bash others in the name of transforming 1st tier to 2nd tier.
Those who fail to successfully bash others leave saying that they are fed up with Wilber and integral theories. Those who continue to post, continue to behave exactly in the same way.
I participated for a long time in many integral mailing lists and left some, came back, until I realized deeply that I am the very source of the problem that I have been critical of others.
It's sad to see how Zaadz became something else in its growth process, but then any talk of raising consciousness etc smacked of big empty words before taking a small yet real step forward.
Even as I write this, I wonder if I am subconsciously bashing others for not realizing this supreme truth... damned if I write, damned if I don't.
Great comments Hokai. I'm finding it hard to come to terms with the 'shadow' of blogging and online forums. How do we cultivate a truly 'integral' forum from which we can be more transformative?
We're running into this problem at Open Source Integral (http://opensourceintegral.ning.com).
What needs to be done to push a more inclusive and transformative agenda forward online???
I don't know?
Glad to discover your blog, Hokai.
I, too, am on the verge of deleting my Zaadz/Gaia page, for a variety of reasons. Just yesterday I read through Julian's and Balder's recent posts, along with the endless string of comments. I was dizzy by the end and felt utterly unable/unwilling to contribute. What more could be said!
I've been an active participant in many "Integral" forums over the years, and tend to get frustrated and disillusioned quite often. I think I feel most comfortable communicating via personal blogs, and have cross-posted on Zaadz simply so I could be active in the discussions there from time to time.
If Julian, Balder and Jim had personal blogs like this one, I would have no use for Zaadz.
The notion of community, of dialoguing around a common purpose, is very seductive. Integral Naked, HeartMind, Zaadz, Open Source Integral... I always end up disappointed, yet still keep coming back.
Hokai,
i appreciate your critique of Zaadz/Gaia Community. i think i understand your frustration. allow me to share my perspective as someone who is both a community member and someone who works for Gaiam. but before i do, let me get this out of the way: of course i have bias when it comes to this because i work for Gaiam. but we all have bias one way or the other. i just hope that you at least have a peek from my perspective as a community member and insider. in the end, it would be up to you whether you think i am trustworthy enough. i'll leave it to you to interpret what i'm going to share here.
"I felt the promised transformative platform was being pampered and traded for an irritating LOHAS chic..."
first, i'd like to know what your problem is with LOHAS. why are you irritated with it in the first place? isn't one of the goals of integral is to have a more conscious lifestyle? LOHAS is just one expression of it. but if not LOHAS then what is your alternative? this is not a rhetorical question. i'd really like to know your thoughts on this.
second, to begin with Zaadz had explicit goal of infusing consciousness in business. the mission involves "conscious capitalism" from the very beginning. i'd like to know what was your original expectation of Zaadz. i think you might have expected something beyond our original mission.
third, i'd like to know what is your issue with Gaiam (aside from it having a New Agey name which you're allergic to). have you looked at its corporate mission and values? are you critiquing Gaiam based on its mission and values, its business practices, or just because of its name? semantics is everything? are you collapsing everything into semantics now? since when is that kind of reasoning a feature of integral thinking? i'll take you more seriously if you could articulate your argument against Gaiam in terms of intelligent critiques of its business practices, corporate ethics, or what not. but to critique Gaiam because of its name is very shallow, imho.
as far as i'm concerned, we're still doing what we have originally stated in our mission. my only frustration is the challenges that come along the way (i.e. financial challenges, slow membership growth, misunderstanding by members, technical challenges, etc.). but now we're back on track and moving forward with our original mission (and more). the Gaia Team is grateful for having Gaiam backing us up because its mission and corporate vision is *100% compatible* with that of Zaadz.
"...it was becoming obvious that even the best discussions at Zaadz are inescapably tainted with endless and painful logical and emotional circularity, defended as PC tolerance at this crucial time when the unsophisticated, deeply narcisistic sensitivity of so many is assaulting every trace of authenticity to be found in so few."
disagreements happen when there are hundreds of thousands of people in a community. this is natural. this is a *feature* of social media. even in the small elitist club of integral circles disagreements (even lawsuits) abound. one of our goals in Gaia community is to have an online oasis where people (from all levels of development) would have freedom to express conventional and unconventional views (i.e. spirituality, meditation, and other stuff most people would consider new agey) without being heckled and ridiculed. this doesn't mean that members have to sing the kumbaya all the time. they are free disagree and bang heads against each other when discussing their philosophies, world views, and pet theories as long as they stick with our Terms of Use and stay respectful to one another.
"I wasn't dissapointed or disheartened, but have come to conclusion that Zaadz was a herald of a project that will be progressive enough to boldly proclaim standards that go beyond sheer egalitarianism, to usher a new standard of communal excellence and depth, immune to the extreme of uncritical acceptance otherwise celebrated as a cardinal virtue. In short, Zaadz was somewhat a hype."
again, Zaadz maybe a hype to you. that's a fair assessment. but then again, what was your expectation of Zaadz in the first place beyond our original mission?
you use Julian Walker's blog as an example. excellent choice, btw. i love Julian's blog too. but i'm not surprised that he gets "flak from everyone" because his style of writing and intellectual approach is confrontational (i think Julian is using Sam Harris' style of conversational intolerance). nothing wrong with that. i practice that style too. what i'm saying is, on any medium whether books, or especially, blogs, whenever you publish an strong opinion on things then *expect to take flak from other people*. your option as blogger is to present your case, kick off the discussion, then when the time comes, step away from it and let it have a life of its own. that's how social media works. it's uber-egalitarian. would you like the alternative of everyone agreeing with you, or deleting the posts of people who disagree?
my question to you is: what is your ideal online discussion? what is your ideal social network? what is your ideal of an integral social network?
"...hardcore discussion can only take place in protected spaces (online or real world), far from anything resembling universal entitlement. Instead, deep discussion is delineated by merit and realization. Whether in business, politics, or spirituality, deep dialogue is sustained by those who are willing and capable to embody that which is being aimed at by discussion with a common purpose and an open mind, or else to remain silent and respectful. Is that too much to ask?"
i agree. and this is exactly what we are doing at Gaia Community. we have levels of moderation to ensure that discussion takes place in protected spaces. aside from the moderators of each pod, we the Gaia Team, is the last tier in protecting the space. we've deactivated a number of uber-egalitarian members who consistently exercised their "egalitarian" right of disrespecting other people's belief, faith, philosophy, etc. because of this we've been accused of censorship, dictatorship, or what have you. then again, i'm proud to say that we have a negligible cases of spamming and abuse. because our members are vigilant and we do our best to act on it quickly. it would continue to be one of our main challenges as our community grows.
all i'm trying to say is that i agree with your premise. but your preference is a more focused and less "green" discussion. our difference is that, Gaia Community attempts to be more inclusive. it provides a space for integral geeks to bang heads, for green-minded people to discuss sustainability and global warming, for activists to promote their causes, for artists to share their creativity, for entrepreneurs to practice conscious capitalism, and yes, even for new agey types to discuss horoscopes, tarot cards, and conspiracy theories. isn't this one of the main premises of integral theory? to let people be healthy at their own level of development?
"Fortunately, there are such places. But we need more hybrids, where some of that deep conversation can be joined by the public in a meaningful way. Any thoughts?"
yes, there are alternatives. you can try Facebook, Myspace, Bebo, Tribe, and countless other social networks. however, since you are looking for a more focused discussion and connection, i think Open Source Integral (http://opensourceintegral.ning.com) is a better alternative for you. but then again, i doubt that even there you'll find what you're looking for because online discussion can only take us so far. what is it that you're looking for again, anyway?
in the meantime, i'm happy to see that there is a *thriving* I-I pod at Gaia Community. as far as i know, we haven't experienced dissent and chaos in that pod mainly because of the *conscientious moderators*, but also because the Gaia Team is backing them up with technical and moral support all the time.
my two cents.
~C
Wow, ~C4, that's what I call a comment! I believe answering your questions deserves a separate blog entry, and I'll do my best to write one, one day. Just a few notes though, to put the record straight:
- I don't have a problem with LOHAS, and I won't offer alternatives to it; what I said is a matter of resonance and taste;
- let's not confuse Zaadz Inc. and Zaadz community, as Zaadz Inc. has done by messing around with "We";
- I don't have an "issue with Gaiam", should I?
- thanks for comforting words, but I'm not naive to think disagreements can be avoided, nor do I hope for that;
- between Zaadz and hype, I put the word "somewhat", check again;
- yes, ~C4, I would like everyone to agree with me. C'mon, man, give yourself a break. When I mentioned Julian being annoyed with getting so much "flak from everyone", it wasn't to oppose the opposition, but instead to show that even Julian succumbed to touchiness, but I'm sure it was a momentary lapse;
- you say one should "expect flak" when voicing a strong opinion, well that depends from whom you're addressing, right? flak also means abusive criticism, not merely difference in opinion;
- as for you advice on where I should try my luck, perhaps you can spare me the courtesy; when I said there are places where authentic, deep discussion takes place, it refered to various closed groups with restricted access - not places in comparison to which Zaadz was indeed a revolution of sorts.
Thanks for sharing the two cents.
Godspeed, Hokai
Hi Anon, IRG, Bob, and thanks for your comments. Creating spaces explicitly and specifically dedicated to hardcore, no-nonsense, zippy discussion is the way to go, but not in one step, I'm afraid. I'm sure we all have some ideas how to do that, and what that should not look like. It's a process, though, and not a simple one.
Hi Hokai,
Thank you very much for naming me an exception. :) That really does fill my heart. I also agree with your assessment of things--discussions there tend to be weighed down by worldview clashes (too severe to be conducive for that type of discussion) and all the other things you named and more.
Even if you skip over these posts, it affects you and the conversation. Somehow an energetic space is created, and everyone contributes to it. It doesn't take too much in terms of worldview clash or hostility to spoil it. It's a pretty delicate business, whether we're trying to have a fine-tuned discussion or build a samahdi. A good sangha is hard to find. :)
We miss you there, of course, as you were one of the people who made it a real online sangha and made deep discussion possible. But I understand it became too much for you, all the negativity. There is still the possibility of private groups there, so if you are ever interested in that please let me know.
Best,
David
Hi David, and thanks for your comment. Those who actually take part in relevant discussions are an infinitesimal minority of 157,000. In that minority, an even smaller part have something notable to say on subjects I happen to find interesting, such as authentic spirituality and the integral approach. There may be many people at Zaadz/Gaia who espouse certain memes and identify with them in a superficial way (what used to be badges, now it's tags online). But without a dozen actual quality makers, the place would be empty of anything resembling depth. I didn't leave because of negativity or even endless and useless expatiations, but because I would not lend my own authenticity to something that in my view only fakes consciousness at best. I find the "conscious" adjective that is being used so insidiously for all sorts of predicates, very questionable in terms of its longterm and widespread effects. In my opinion, it's the same undead societal current that used to term their products "healthy" and "whole" only to claim a higher price for them, only now intent on branding "consciousness" as well, using words like integrity and community to mesmerize and disarm. Offering to end culture wars is not the same as white-flagging our own (and everyone else's) dignity.
Take care,
Hokai
miss you hokai - love your mind!
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